An Interview of Irfan Habib by Priyamvad

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Akar sao saaBaar
p`isaw [ithasaivad\ p`aoş [rfana hbaIba sao ip`yaMvad kI baatcaIt

ł 23 frvarIÁ p`atÁ 10ş 30‚ AlaIgaZ, mauislama yaUinavaisa-TI´

[rfana hbaIba saahba ka yah saaxaa%kar lagaBaga dao GaNTo tk Top huAa hO. ]nhaoMnao ApnaI sauivaQaanausaar ihndI‚ ]dU- va [MiMglaSa ko SabdaoM ka imaiEat p`yaaoga ikyaa hO. [MiMglaSa ko SabdaoM ka ja,$rt ko Anausaar ihndI maoM Anauvaad ikyaa gayaa hO ijasasao ik pZ,to samaya ek inarntrta banaI rho. AlaIgaZ, ko Da^ş p`oma kumaar ko sahyaaoga ko bagaOr yah saaxaa%kar saMBava hI nahIM qaa. baatcaIt ko daOrana vah pUro samaya ]pisqat qao. [sa saaxaa%kar ko ilayao maOM ]naka ivaSaoYa $p sao AaBaarI hUĐ. — ip`yaMvad

ip`yavaMd — ABaI maOsaUr maoM [iNDyana ihsT/I kaMga`osa ka caaOMsazvaaM saoSana huAa. maoro pasa ÍnTlaa[na janavarI 30‚ 2004 kI irpao-T hO. maOM pZ,ta hUĐ — ' vana qaa]jaoND T\vaolva hNDroD DolaIgaoT\sa Í^ama smaala ka^laojaoja,‚ yauinavaisa-TIja, iDpaT-maonT\sa eND irsaca- [nsTIT\yaUSansa Tuk paT-. 640 ekoDimak popsa- var p`ojaonToD.' [sa saoSana maoM [sa kaMga`osa p`osaIDonT nao kha— ' ihsT/I SauD baI irTna baa[- ihsTaoiryansa'‚ SauD naa^T baI paOilaiTsaa[j,D.' Aap ka BaI [nTrvyaU hO. Aapnao kha — 'ihsT/I SauD naa^T baI maOnyaufO@caD-.' p`Sna yah hO ik @yaa yah saMBava hO ik [ithasa maOnyaufO@car na ikyaa jaayaoĆ [ithasa tao hmaoSaa hI sao ' maOnyaufO@caD- ' haota hO. jaao BaI sa<aa maoM haota hO vah [ithasa Apnao ihsaaba sao ilaKta hO. kaMga`osa nao Apnao ihsaaba sao ilaKa‚ laoiFTsT nao Apnao ihsaaba sao ilaKa‚ Aaja Aarş esaş esaş Apnao ihsaaba sao ilaK rha hO. yah kOsao hao sakta hO ik [ithasa maOnyaufO@caD- na haoĆ

[rfana hbaIba — doiKe Aapnao jaao baat khI vah bahut sarlaIkRt hO. maOM nao [sa caIja, kao dUsarI trf sao SauÉ krnaa caahta hUĐ. iksaI doSa kao Apnao [ithasa kI @yaaoM ja,$rt haotI hOĆ ]sakao [sailayao ja,$rt haotI hO jaOsao ek vyai@t kao ApnaI yaaddaSt kI ja,$rt haotI hO. Agar vah vyai@t safla haonaa caahta hO tao ]sakI yaaddaSta kao e@yaUroT haonaa caaihyao. jahaM ]sanao galaityaaM kI hOM ]sao yaad rKnaa caaihyao. Agar ]sakao isaf- yah saMtaoYa hO ik vah DIMga maaro tao ]sakI yaaddaSt ek dUsaro trh kI haogaI. ]sasao na ]sao kao[- fayada haota hO‚ na saaosaayaTI kao kao[- fayada haota hO. AMga`ojaI maoM ]sao Saa^vaoinaj,ma khto hOM. [saIilayao ihsT/I ek naOcarla saaoSala saa[nsaoja, maoM AatI hO. raYT/ kao BaI yah ja,$rt haotI hO ik hma yah maalaUma kroM kI hmanao @yaa galatI kI . Agat jama-naI ko baccaaoM kao yaa jaapana ko baccaaoM kao yah na pZ,ayaa jaae ik dUsara ivaSvayauw iktnaI Bayaanak caIja, qaI AaOr ]samaoM jama-naI AaOr jaapana daonaaoM kao iktnaa nauksaana huAa‚ tao yah baat ]na doSaaoM ko ilayao AcCI nahIM hO. Aba Agar Baart maoM hma yah pZ,anaa caahto hOM ik hmaaro pasa hr caIja, maaOjaUd qaI‚ hma saa[Msa maoM sabasao Aagao qao‚ ?gvaod ko jamaanao maoM saba jaanato qao‚ basa yahI huAa ik ?gvaod ko ?iYayaaoM nao Cupa kr rKa‚ tao ]sasao hmaoM kao[- fayada na haogaa. hmaoM ApnaI saByata maoM jaao kmaja,aoiryaaM hOM vaao maalaUma hI nahIM haoMgaI. vaOsao BaI yah ek baovakUfI kI baat hO. [sasao yah maalaUma haota hO ik hma caar hja,ar saala sao BaUlato hI rho‚paMca hja,ar saala sao BaUlato hI rho. kao[- hmanao kama hI nahIM ikyaa isavaaya BaUlanao ko. hma eosaI baokar kaOma qao. laoikna [samaoM [ithasa ka kao[- fayada nahIM hO. tao [ithasa kOsao knsT/@T ikyaa jaayaoĆ [sakao Aksar thkIkat maoM ' ihsTaoirkla fO@T\sa ' kha jaata hO. eosao fO@T\sa haoto hOM ijanasao [nakar nahIM ikyaa jaa sakta. vao vaO&ainak trIko sao jamaa haoto hOM. ]nako caunaava maoM‚ Aap sahI khto hOM ik yah hao sakta hO. p`acaIna Baart ka [ithasa Aarş saIş majaUmadar ek trh sao ilaKto hOM tao DIş DIş kaOsaambaI dUsarI trh sao. ł Aarş saIş majaUmadar nao raYT/vaadI dRiYTkaoNa rKa hO jabaik DIş DIş kaOsaambaI nao ]%padna lp saaQanaaoM AaOr ]sako Ëimak ivakasa ko dRiYTkaoNa sao ilaKa hO – ip`yaMvad´ laoikna maOM daonaaoM kao [ithasakar samaJata hUĐ @yaaoMik vao ' ihsTaoirkla fO@T\sa ko salao@Sana maoM DIla kr rho hOM. Aarş saIş majaUmadar nao khIM nahIM kha ik Aaya- ihndustana sao hI inaklao qao AaOr yahIM sao baahr gayao qao. jabaik koş emaş mauMSaI nao eotraja, ikyaa tao ]nhaoMnao kha yah galat hO. tao jaba hmaaro p`osaIDonT nao kha ik ' ihsT/I SauD baI laoFT‚ Tu ihsTaoiryansa' tao [saka matlaba yah nahIM qaa ik iksaI 'T/oND Aa^f ihsTaoiryansa' . Agar [sa va@t BaI hmaarI baI jao pI sarkar Aarş saIş majaUmadar AaOr raya caaOQarI kI iktaba ł" Aarş saIş majaUmadar ihndU mahasaBaa sao naja,dIkI sao jauD,o qao AaOr ]nhaoMnao [ithasa pUvaa-ga`h ko saaqa ilaKa hO‚ laoikna vaao ek p`aofoSanala ihsTaoiryana qao. mauJao ivaSvaasa hO ik ]nhaoMnao enaş saIş [-ş Aarş TIş kI iktabaoM iDsaimasa kr dI haotIM " ‚ [rfana hbaIba ´ vahI
' eDvaansa ihsT/I Aa^f [iNDyaa ' zIk samaJatI hO‚ tao kao[- eotraja, nahIM hO. vaao eoithaisak sa%ya hO. halaaMik mausalamaanaaoM kI j,yaadityaaM kuC j,yaada bayaana kr dI hOM pr cailayao vah cala jaata hO. laoikna [sa iksma kI caIjaoM nahIM haoMgaI jaao yah baccaaoM kao Aba pZ,a rho hOM. jahaM tk Aapnao sarkaraoM ka ija,Ë ikyaa tao maOM Aapkao bata dUĐ ik kaMga`osa sarkar nao ApnaI kao[- idlacaspI [ithasa ilaKanao maoM nahIM idKa[-… [sailayao ik…

ip`ş — Da^ş taracand nao jaao ilaKI…

[ş hş — ]nhaoMnao ' ihsT/I Aa^f ÍIDma maUvamaonT ilaKI. vah [sailayao ik Aarş saIş majaUmadar nao gaaMQaI jaI kI Aalaaocanaa kI qaI. AaOr vah tao ek sarkarI iktaba ]nhaoMnao ilaKI. vaOsao Agar Aap Da^ş taracand ko AQyaaya BaI pZ,oM tao Aapkao tajjauba haogaa ik iktnaI Aalaaocanaa hO ]samaoM gaaMQaI jaI tk kI. [sailayao @yaaoMik vah p`aofoSanala ihsTaoiryana qao. gaaMQaI jaI dUsarI ra]MD Tobala ka^nÍonsa maoM gayao ]sakI Aalaaocanaa hO. ihndU mahasaBaa kI Aalaaocanaa hO. mauislama laIga kI hO. kaMga`osa kI BaI hO. Agar Aap [sa iktaba kao doKoM tao Aapkao maalaUma haogaa ik p`aofoSanala ihsTaoiryana kOsao iktaba ilaKta hO. Aba jaao iktabaoM ilaKI jaa rhI hOM vao p`aofoSanala ihsTaoiryansa kI nahIM ilaKI jaa rhIM hOM. Aba Aarş esaş esaş nao Apnaa jaao ek [ithasa banaayaa‚ ijasamaoM kha ik kaOiTlya txaiSalaa yauinavaisa-TI ka p`aofosar qaa AaOr ]sanao cand`gauPt maaOya- kao laD,a[- krko‚ tailabaana kI trh ]nhaoMnao… vaIş DIş saavarkr nao yao saba baatoM ilaKI hOM‚ tao ]sao Aba baccaaoM kao pZ,a rho hOM. ł " Agar ek skUla ko baccao ka ivakasa yah saaocato hue haota hO ik puÉYa is~yaaoM sao EaoYz hOM‚ ik ]saka Qama- dUsaro saba Qamaao-M sao baohtr hO‚ ik ]sakI jaait dUsaraoM sao }McaI hO… tao @yaa eosaa baccaa ]sa vaO&ainak iSaxaa ka kao[- fayada ]za sakogaa jaao ]sao imala rhI hOĆ eosao ivacaaraoM ko saaqa hma kOsaa doSa banaayaoMgaoĆ — [rfana hbaIba´ yah baat tao Aarş saIş majaUmadar kBaI kbaUla na krto. raya caaOQarI kI ' pa^ilaTIkla ihsT/I Aa^f einSayanT [iNDyaa' maoM jaaihr hO [saka khIM kao[- ija,Ë nahIM hO. yao tao saba managaZ,nt baatoM hOM. tao hmaaro p`osaIDonT saahba nao jaao baatoM khIM vaao [saI baat kI trf [Saara krtI hOM ik managaZ,nt baatoM nahIM haonaI caaihyaoM. Aap ihsTaoirkla fO@T\sa ka salao@Sana kIijayao. ihsT/I yaa [ka^naaoima@sa kao[- eosaI saaoSala saa[nsa nahIM hO jaao yah kho ik maoro pasa pUra sa%ya maaOjaUd qaa. tao eosao hI ihsT/I maoM Aama ihsTaoirkla fO@T\sa sao DIla krto hOM [nvaonToD fO@T\sa sao nahIM.

ip`ş — @yaa kao[- iDvaa[sa‚ kao[- p`aivaiQa eosaI hao saktI hO ik [ithasa kI [sa trh kI ' maOnyaufO@cairMga ' kao raoka jaa sako yaa pkD,a jaa sako yaa dsa‚ baIsa‚ pccaIsa saala baad yah AasaanaI sao samaJa ilayaa jaayao ik ek ivacaarQaara‚ ek Aa[iDyaaolaa^jaI ko karNa [ithasa kI [na caIja,aoM kao gaZ,a gayaa hOĆ

[ş hş — iDvaa[sa tao Ch saaO saala sao ivakisat hao caukI hO. pnd`hvaIM SatabdI maoM [bnaoKldUna qaa‚ ]sanao kha ik saahba jaao tarIK yah kho ik pcaasa hja,ar laSkr kao laokr kao[- baadSaah imasa` phuMcaa ifilastIna sao‚ tao vah galat hO‚ @yaaoMik pcaasa hja,ar kao panaI hI nahIM imalaogaa rasto maoM. Aba Aap kaOoiTlya kao lao laIijayao. hmaoM nahIM maalaUma ik txaiSalaa kao[- yauinavaisa-TI qaI‚ laaoga pZ,nao Aato qao‚ gauÉ qao. iksaI saMskRt TO@sT maoM yah nahIM hO ik kaOiTlya txaiSalaa ka qaa. ]sao Aksar caaNa@ya kha gayaa hO. Aqa-Saas~ ijasanao ilaKa ]sao ivaYNaugauPt kha gayaa hO. ]samaoM caaNa@ya laFja, [stomaala hI nahIM huAa hO. Aqa-Saas~ maoM jaao AafIsar imalato hOM‚ ]nako jaao naama hOM vao ASaaok ko eiD@T\sa ł iSalaalaoKaoM´ maoM hOM hI nahIM. ASaaok ko [nsaiËPSanał AiBalaoKaoM´ maoM ]naka ija,Ë hI nahIM imalata. Aqa-Saas~ maoM kuC eosao Sabd hOM jaao bahut mauiSkla hOM caaOqaI SatabdI yaa tIsarI SatabdI baIş saIş maoM haonaa. saMskRt BaI [sakI qaaoD,I baad kI hO. tao yah tao kaOiTlya kI halat hO. Aap ]sakao txaiSalaa ka p`oafosar banaa doto hOM jaba yahI nahIM maalaUma ik txaiSalaa yauinavaisa-TI haotI BaI qaI yaa nahIM. yah saMGaarama tao baaOwaoM nao SauÉ ikyaa hO. ba`a*maNaaoM maoM nahIM haota qaa. naalanda bahut baD,a saMGaarama qaa ijasao hma yauinavaisa-TI khto hOM. tao [sao hma [sa trh TosT krto hOM ik iksaI saaosa- maoM kuC imalata BaI hO yaa Aapnao Apnao idmaaga maoM tya kr ilayaa ik eosaa huAa hO.

ip`ş — pr [ithasakaraoM kI BaI caIjaaoM kao doKnao kI Alaga – Alaga dRiYT haotI hO jaOsao klaakaraoM kI haotI hO.

[ş hş — ek baat maOM ja,$r khUMgaa ik baIş jaoş pIş kao baD,o [ithasakar nahIM imala rho Apnao saaqa.

ip`ş — laoKk BaI nahIM imala rho.

[ş hş — na imalanao kI ek vajah [ithasakaraoM maoM yah BaI hO ik ]namaoM‚ hma sabanao ihsTaOirkla fO@T\sa pZ,o. ]saI pr popr‚ pustkoM ilaKIM. Aba Aap khoM ik nahIM‚ yah saba galat hO [nakao Aap CaoiD,yao. jaao [nsaiËPSana maoM hO jaao ra^k eiD@T\sa maoM hO‚ saba baokar hO. AapkaoM maOM ek imasaala dota hUĐ jaao [ithasakaraoM kI samasyaa hO. ?gvaod ko SabdaoM ka jaao matlaba hmaaro piNDtaoM nao batlaayaa ]sasao‚ ]saI BaaYaa sao imalatI jaulatI iktaba hO [-rana kI
' Avaosta' . 'Avaosta ' ko SabdaoM ko parsaI puraoihtaoM ko‚ AaOr ?gvaod ko SabdaoM ko yahaM ko piNDtaoM ko‚ [nTrip`ToSansa maoM baohd samaanataeM hOM. Sabd AaOr [nTrip`ToSansa daonaaoM imalato hOM. [sako maanao hOM ik daonaaoM jagah samaanataeM qaIM. ]saIkao maaD-na ska^lariSap nao maanaa‚ ihsTaOirkla ska^lariSap nao maanaa. Aba ]nasa yah kha jaayao ik [tnao baD,o – baD,o saMskRt jaananao vaalao Baart ko saba baokar hOM AaOr ek sauBaaYa kak Amaoirka maoM hOM‚ ]nhaoMnao kh idyaa ik [sako Andr flaaM famaU-laa hO AaOr [sako Andr yah BaaYaa hO ?gvaod maoM‚ AaOr Aap maana laIijayao. tao [sako ilayao baD,a klaojaa caaihyao. bahut baD,a klaojaa caaihyao. ek tao [nakI yah samasyaa hO. dUsarI samasyaa‚ yaaina samasyaa AnthIna hO. hmaaro jaIş saIş paNDoya saahba hOM‚ jaao Aba ]nako saaqa hOM‚ bahut baD,o ska^lar hOM. jaba maOM caoyarmaOna qaa Aa[- saI eca Aar ł [iNDyana ka]insala Aa^f ihsTa^irkla irsaca-´ ka tao‚ kaMga`osa gavana-maonT qaI. ]nhaoMnao SaMkracaaya- jaI pr ilaKvaanao ko ilayao kha. maOM nao p`aoş jaIş saIş paNDoya kao Kt ilaKa ik Aap kuC ilaK doM. gavana-maonT ka Kt Aayaa ik jaIş saIş paNDoya eosaa na kroM ik khIM SaMkracaaya- kI tarIK AazvaIM SatabdI [-svaI kr doM. hma tao ]nakao hjaar [-ş pUva- samaJato hOM. tao maOM nao ]nhoM ek Kt ilaKa ik saahba maorI tao yah samaJa maoM nahIM Aata ik jaba yao Kud hI khto hOM ik gaaOtma ko AnauyaaiyayaaoM kao [nhaoMnao bahsa maoM hrayaa AaOr gaaOtma bauw kI tarIK 486 [-ş pUş hO‚ tao vah hjaar ek [-ş pUş kOsao hao sakto hOMĆ bahrhala‚ dUsarI baat yah hO ik maOM jaIş saIş paNDoya saahba kao eosaa Kt nahIM ilaK sakta @yaaoMik maOM nao qaaoD,I bahut ihsT/I pZ,I hO. tIsarI baat yah ik Aapkao [sasao @yaa tallaukĆ Aap gavana-maonT Aa^f [iNDyaa hOM‚ hma Aa[- saI eca Aar hOM. hma ek iktaba ilaKvaa rho hOM Apnao Kca- pr. ]sa Kt ka kBaI javaaba nahIM Aayaa. jaIş saIş paNDoya nao ibalakula vahI kha ik AazvaIM SatabdI maoM qao SaMkracaaya-. kuC AaOr baatoM BaI ilaKIM ik SaMkracaaya- nao mahayaana bauiwj,ma sao bahut saI caIjaoM laIM AaOr kBaI [sakao svaIkar nahIM ikyaa. Aba jaIş saIş paNDoya sao Aap khoM ik nahIM SaMkracaaya- hjaar [-ş pUva- maoM qao tao kOsao maana laoMgao [sakaoĆ tao yah ]na laaogaaoM kI samasyaa hO jaao vaastva maoM [iDyaaolaa^ijaklaIł ivacaarQaara%mak $p sao´ vaOsao ]na laaogaaoM ko saaqa hOM. ]nakao ł jaIş saIş paNDoya´ [nhaoMnao caOyarmaona banaayaa hO ' [MiDyana [nsTIT\yaUT Aa^f eDvaansa sTDIja, iSamalaa' ka. laoikna vah ApnaI ipClaI ra[iTMgsa kao kOsao jalaa doMĆ AaOr kOsao ek nayaI caIja, khnaa SauÉ kr doM ijasaka kao[- AaQaar nahIM hOĆ

ip`ş — 1857 tk hmaoM ihndU – mauislama saMGaYaao-M ka lagaBaga kao[- ]llaoK nahIM imalata. 1857 ko ivad`aoh maoM BaI kha gayaa ' maulk baadSaah ka' yaa kanapur maoM yaa naanaa saahba ko jaItnao pr hra JaNDa fhrayaa gayaa. ivadoSaI yaai~yaaoM kI DayarI‚ saMsmarNaaoM maoM BaI eosao ija,Ë nahIM imalato. 1857 ko baad kOsao AaOr @yaa badlaava Aayao ik ihndU – mauislama saMGaYaao-M kI Sa@la [tnaI badlaI ik Aaja caIjaoM yahaĐ tk phuMca gayaIMĆ

[ş hş — doiKe‚ maOM [samaoM yah khUMgaa ik Qama- kI mauzBaoD, tao hr va@t‚ hr jagah qaI. ASaaok nao BaI ilaKa hO ik dUsaro samp`daya kao nauksaana nahIM phuMcanaa caaihyao. ]sakI BaI [jjat krnaI caaihyao. tao jaaihr hO ik Aapsa maoM mauzBaoD, tao qaI varnaa khnao kI @yaa ja,$rt qaIĆ bauiwsT saaih%ya maoM ba`a*maNaaoM sao iSakayatoM hOM AaOr baaOw ga`nqaaoM maoM ba`a*maNaaoM kao baura Balaa kha gayaa hO. Akbar ko ilayao 1581 maoM ek jaosau[T banaama maaojaroT nao yah kha ik duinayaa maoM kao[- Qama- eosaa nahIM ik ijasamaoM dUsaro Qama- kao Ta^laroT krnaa jaayaja, hao. doyar [ja, naao rIlaIjana ivaca primaT\sa d Talaronsa Aa^f Adr rIlaIjana. ]sanao Akbar pr yah saba na samaJanao ka [laja,ama lagaayaa qaa. yah tao Qama- kI baat hO hI ik Agar maOM saccaa hUĐ tao ifr Aap dUsaro Qama- maoM @yaaoM jaayaoMgaoĆ hmaaro p`acaIna [ithasa maoM BaI hO ik jaba saasainayaaoM nao kbjaa ikyaa Afgaainastana pr AaOr kuYaaNaaoM kao jaIta‚ tao ijatnao baaOw ivahar qao ]nakao ]nhaoMnao fayar TOmpla banaa idyaa. yah baat Alaba$naI nao gyaarhvaIM SatabdI maoM khI AaOr Aba purat%va nao [sao saaibat kr idyaa. yah BaI hO ik mausalamaanaaoM nao BaI fayar TOmplsa kao naYT kr idyaa. tao Qaaima-k matBaod [sa trh ka tao qaa hI… laoikna [saI ko saaqa Baart maoM sahyaaoga BaI rha‚ dUsaro Qamaao-M kI maanyata BaI rhI‚ ik Ba[- hmaoM [nasao tao sahyaaoga krnaa hI hO. tao hmaoM daonaaoM trh ko T/oND\sa imalato hOM. bailk maugala saama`ajya maoM tao yah baat saulah kula ko rajanaOitk isawant kI trh AayaI ijasaka matlaba qaa ik sabakao Saaint ko saaqa imala jaula kr rhnaa caaihyao. AaOrMgajaoba nao Balao hI [sakao iDfa^lT ikyaa hao laoikna ]sanao BaI ek dfa raNaa rajaisaMh ko ilayao jaarI Apnao ek hu@manaamao maoM kha ik jaOsao Kuda‚ ihndU – mausalamaana saba pr saUrja kI raoSanaI BaI Dalata hO baairSa BaI… vaYaa- BaI krta hO‚ tao baadSaah BaI ]saka p`itinaiQa hO [sailayao baadSaah kao iksaI maoM tf,rIk,ł BaodBaava´ nahIM krnaa caaihyao. ]sanao [sa baat pr Amala nahIM ikyaa yah dUsarI baat hO‚ pr yah ek rajanaOitk isawant tao qaa hI. marazaoM nao BaI ihndU pd padSaahI ka naara kuC idna rKa ifr yahI kha ik maugala baadSaah hO AaOr hma ]sako vaja,Ir hOM‚ yaa isaMiQayaa ]saka ba#SaI ]la maubaailak hO. [sa trh jaba naanaa saaihba ka ija,Ë Aayaa tao ]nhaoMnao BaI yahI kha ik hma baadSaah ko vaja,Ir hOM. tao [sa trh Qamaao-M maoM ekta rhI @yaaoMik maugala baadSaah sabakao svaIkar krta qaa AaOr 1857 tk yahI saIna rha‚ vanaa- AMga`ojaI saama`ajya ka maukabalaa kOsao haotaĆ

[samaoM maOM Aapkao Aba ek dUsarI baat khUMgaa. jaao laaoga AMga`ojaI saama`ajya ko vaak[- ivaraoQaI qao‚ ]nhaoMnao hmaoSaa ekta kI baat kI… AaOr jaao laaoga nahIM qao ]nhaoMnao [samaoM kao[- idlacaspI nahIM qaI. yah ek ksaaOTI hO. jahaM tk gaaMQaI jaI kI baat hO‚ kaMga`osa laIDriSap kI baat hO‚ itlak kI baat hO‚ tao yah baat tao ibalakula saamanao Aa ga[- hO. jaba vao bamaa- kI kOd sao vaapsa Aae tao ]nhoM yah tya krnaa pD,a ik Aagao doSa maoM kOsaI rajanaIit calaayaI jaayao tao ]nhaoMnao kha ik sabasao phlao kaMga`osa AaOr mauislama laIga maoM ekta haonaI caaihyao.[sailayao mausalamaanaaoM kao Agar kuC knsaoSana caaihyao tao do donaa caaihyao. ijasaka natIjaa 1916 ka laKna} pO@T huAa… tao [sa trh jaao ihndU naoSanailaj,ma ko baD,o ifgar samaJao jaato qao eT\TI naa[nTIja, maoM‚ jaba paoija,Sana saaf hu[- ik AMgao`jaI saama`ajya ka maukabalaa pUro ihndustana maoM krnaa hO isaf- maharaYT/ maoM nahIM krnaa hO‚ tao vah paojaISana ]nhaoMnao lao laI. gaaMQaI‚ sauBaaYa baaosa‚ sabakI paojaISana i@layar hO. mausalamaanaaoM maoM AamataOr sao yah maalaUma nahIM hO laaogaaoM kao jaao pOna [slaaimaj,ma kha jaata hO‚ ]sako fa[Tr jalaalau_Ina AfgaanaI qao‚ klak<aa maoM ]nhaoMnao tkrIr kI 1883 maoM … ]nhaoMnao kha ik ihndustana maoM pOna[slaaimaj,ma laagaU nahIM hao sakta AaOr yahaM ko mausalamaanaaoM kao Baart kao hI Apnaa maulk samaJanaa caaihyao. iba`iTSa saama`ajya ka maukabalaa krnao ko ilayao ihndU – mausalamaanaaoM kI ekjauTta kao ]nhaoMnao ja,$rI maanaa qaa. jaao vaastva maoM saama`ajyavaad ko iKlaaf nahIM haoto vao Aaihsta – Aaihsta saamp`daiyak haoto calao jaato hOM‚ yah Qyaana rKnao kI baat hO. caunaaMcao Aap doK laIijayao ik ihndU mahasaBaa ko jaao laIDr kaMga`osa maoM SauÉ maoM qao‚ QaIro – QaIro vao iSaFT krko ]saI paoija,Sana maoM calao gayao ijasamaoM Aarş esaş esaş ka khnaa qaa ik hmaara ivaraoQaI mausalamaana hO AMga`oja nahIM. AaOr mauislama laIga kI BaI yahI paojaISana hu[- ik kaMga`osa ko ejaITosana pr Aaja,adI tao Aa hI jaayaogaI… ]samaoM hmaara BaI ihssaa haonaa caaihyao. hma hI @yaaoM jaUJaoM AMga`ojaaoM ko maukabalao ko ilayao. tao yah paojaISana mauislama laIga ko naotaAaoM kI qaI. tao daonaaoM hI AMga`ojaI saama`ajya ko saMGaYa- sao inakla Aayao. Aba [nhaoMnao [sa AaQaar pr laD,a[- krnaa SauÉ ikyaa. ApnaI saamp`daiyak paojaISana kao majabaUt krnaa SauÉ ikyaa. kao[- Sak nahIM ik [sasao hmaara raYT/Iya Aandaolana BaI kmaja,aor huAa AaOr Agar kaMga`osa laIDriSap sao@yaular na rhtI‚ tao bahut hI kmaja,aor hao jaata. laoikna yah ]sakI tarIf kI baat hO ik [tnao p`aovaaokoSanał BaD,kanao´ ko baad BaI‚ Aarş esaş esaş kI [tnaI gaailayaaM donao pr BaI‚ ihndU mahasaBaa ko gaailayaaM donao pr BaI‚ paikstana bananao ko baavaja,Ud ]sanao sao@yaular paojaISana laI. [samaoM gaaMQaI jaI AaOr pMş naoh$ ka bahut yaaogadana hO.

ip`ş — itlak kI maR%yau 1920 maoM hu[-. ]sako baad gaaMQaI nao ]ga` ihndu%va kao raoka. yaa yaUM khoM ik baala zakro yaa Aarş esaş esaş ko ihndu%va kao Baart maoM Aanao maoM [tnaa samaya [sailayao lagaa @yaaoMik baIca maoM gaaMQaI jaI ka ]dar ihndu%va qaa. Agar mauislma rajanaIit maoM kao[- ]dar mauislama haota tao‚ saMBava qaa ik paTI-Sana hI nahIM haota yaa caIjaoM Aaja [tnaI Kraba Sa@la na laotIMĆ

[ş hş — Aapka Kana Abdula gaFfar KaĐ ko baaro maoM @yaa #yaala hOĆ

ip`ş — inaiScat $p sao ]naka naama lao sakto hOM.

[ş hş — Kana Abdula gaFfar KaĐ ]na laaogaaoM maoM sao qao ijanhaoMnao yah tya ikyaa ik ihndustana daÉlahba- hO‚ AMga`ojaaoM ko kbjao maoM hO‚ [sailayao daÉlahba- hO‚ yahaM nahIM rha jaa sakta. tao vaao Afgaainastana gayao AaOr ]sako baad yao laaoga vaapsa Aayao ik Apnao maulk maoM hI hmaoM saMGaYa- krnaa hO. [naka gaaMQaI jaI sao kao[- sambanQa nahIM qaa. [nakI ApnaI vyaa#yaa [slaama kI yah qaI ik yah Amana ka majahba hO‚ samaajasauQaar ka majahba hO AaOr talaIma ka pOgaama dota hO. ]nnaIsa saaO caaObaIsa yaa pccaIsa maoM‚ jaba kaohaT maoM ihnduAaoM pr jaulma huAa tba ihndustana kao maalaUma huAa ik ek saahba baD,o mausalamaana hOM jaao vahaM phuMca gayao pzanaaoM ko saaqa‚ ik saahba ihnduAaoM ka iDfonsa haonaa caaihyao. gaaMQaI jaI ka [sasao kao[- tallauk nahIM qaa. [sako baad jaao klak<aa kaMga`osa 1918 maoM hu[-‚ ]samaoM [na laaogaaoM nao sabasao phlao Baaga ilayaa. svayaM kao yao Kuda[- iKdmatgaar khto qao. 1930 maoM [nhaoMnao gaaMQaI jaI kao pUrI trh Apnaa laIDr maana ilayaa. kaMgao`sa ko puranao naotaAaoM nao gaaMQaI jaI sao yah iSakayat kI ik hma ejaIToSana iD@laoAr nahIM krto AaOr yao AMga`ojaaoM ko iKlaaf thrIk, calaa doto hOM. gaaMQaI jaI nao tba naohÉ jaI sao [sa baabat pUCa. piNDt naoh$ nao tba gaaMQaI jaI sao kha ik AsalaI kaMga`osamaOna tao yahI hOM‚ yao Kuda[- iKdmatgaar. [nhoM kao[- prvaah iba`iTSa gava-maonT kI nahIM hO. Kuda[- iKdmatgaar Aaga-naa[ja,oSana maoM ifr kaMga`osa Aaga-naa[ja,oSana kao Saaimala kr ilayaa gayaa. Kuda[- iKdmatgaar haonao ko ilayao ihndU yaa mauislama haonaa kao[- baaQaa nahIM qaI. ifr gaaMQaI jaI sao [nakI daostI BaI hu[-. tao savaala yah hO ik Kana Abdula gaFfar KaĐ jaOsaa AadmaI‚ Aba tk paikstana maoM ]na pr iktabaoM inaklatI hOM‚ pr maOM [sao saa^FT ihndu%va yaa saa^FT [slaama nahIM khUMgaa. gaaMQaI jaI ka Aap DovalapmaonT doKoM tao vah SauÉ maoM jaait vyavasqaa ko iKlaaf bahut ehityaat sao kuC khto qao‚ halaaMik Kud Apnaa gausalaKa,naa saaf krto qao‚ dilat laaogaaoM ko saaqa baOzkr Kanaa Kato qao. [saI dilat [SaU maoM saabarmatI AaEama maoM ek saoz Aakr ek hjaar Épe na doto tao AaEama TUT jaata ]naka‚ laoikna baahr vah jaait vyavasqaa pr kBaI AaËmaNa nahIM krto qao. bailk ek jagah tao yah BaI kh gayao ik iba`iTSa saama`ajya hmaarI jaait vyavasqaa pr inaBa-r hO. ]nhoM tao hr iksma ko laaogaaoM kao Saaimala krnaa qaa. 1920 maoM ]nhoM yah Andaja,a haonao lagaa qaa ik dilataoM kao Agar Saaimala krnaa hO tao isaf- CUt – Cat ka hI maukabalaa nahIM krnaa hO bailk jaait vyavasqaa ka BaI krnaa hO. [saI trh AaOrtaoM ko AiQakaraoM kI trf mauD,o. ihnd svaraja maoM doiKe. AaOrtaoM ko AiQakaraoM ka kao[- ija,Ë hI nahIM hO. baad maoM ]nakI yah paojaISana hu[- ik mad- AaOr AaOrt saba barabar hOM. kao[- fk- nahIM daonaaoM maoM haonaa caaihyao. jabaik SauÉ maoM ]nakI yah paojaISana ibalakula nahIM qaI. bailk AMga`ojaaoM kI saByata kI mauKalaft krto qao ik vao AaOrtaoM sao fO@T/I maoM kama laoto hOM. tao ]naka ivakasa huAa jaOsao – jaOsao maaobalaa[jaoSana ikyaa ]nhaoMnao iba`iTSa saama`ajya ko iKlaaf. ifr ]namaoM maUlyaaoM ka BaI ivakasa huAa. gaaMQaI jaI nao tao ilaKa hO ik ' truth‚ not consistancy is my object. bahut saI baatoM ]nhaoMnao ihnd svaraja maoM ilaKIM jaao galat hOM. tao maOM samaJata hUĐ ik [samaoM saa^FT ihndu%va yaa saa^FT [slaama jaOsaI kao[- baat hI nahIM hO. yah tao ek Qama- ko AkIdo kI baat hO. laoikna jaao maanavaIya maUlya hOM ]na pr vao laaoga kao[- samaJaaOta nahIM krto qao. AaOr jahaM tk mausalamaanaaoM ko p`aoTo@Sana ka 1946 – 48 maoM savaala hO tao gaaMQaI jaI sao j,yaada iksanao ikyaa haogaaĆ tao vah tao saa^FT ihndu%va vaalaa tao Baaga KD,a haota.

ip`ş — laoikna Kana Abdula gaFfar KaĐ mauislma rajanaIit maoM iknaaro haoto gayao. ijannaa ]samaoM Aagao Aayao AaOr saamp`daiyakta kI haD- laa[na pkD,to gae. ijannaa SauÉ maoM eosao nahIM qao. ]nhaoMnao pUra 180 iDga`I ka Tna- ilayaa. eosaa @yaaoM huAaĆ

[ş hş — phlaI baat tao yah ik Kana Abdula gaFfar KaMĐ mauislama rajanaIit maoM qao hI nahIM kBaI. vao tao iba`iTSa saama`ajya ko iKlaaf laD,o gayao Aaja,adI ko Aandaolana ko laIDraoM maoM sao qao. mauislama rajanaIit tao‚jaaihr hO ik saamp`daiyak rajanaIit haogaI. jahaM tk ijannaa ka tallauk hO tao yah khnaa galat hO ik ]nhaoMnao ek hI va@t ek saaO AssaI ka Tna- ilayaa. 1919 sao 1940 tk kI yah ek lambaI khanaI hO. 1919 maoM ]nhaoMnao raOlaT e@T ko iKlaaf laoijaslaoiTva ka]insala sao [stIfa idyaa. laoikna ifr baad maoM maalavaIya jaI ko saaqa ]na laIDsa- maoM qao jaao naa^na kao – Aa^proSana maoM Saaimala nahIM hue. AaOr [sa trh maalavaIya jaI AaOr ijannaa saahba daonaaoM ka iSafT saamp`daiyak rajanaIit maoM baZ,ta gayaa @yaaoMik daonaaoM raYT/Iya Aandaolana sao kT gayao. maalavaIya jaI ihndU mahasaBaa kao ija,nda krnao maoM laga gayao AaOr ijannaa saahba mauislama laIga kI trf calao gayao. laoikna hmaoM yah yaad rKnaa caaihyao ik ]nhaoMnao saayamana kmaISana ko baayaka^T maoM ihssaa ilayaa. Asala maoM ]nakI saamp`daiyakta kI rajanaIit [sa baayaka^T sao hI SauÉ haotI hO jaba ]nakao yah #yaala huAa ik vao iba`iTSa sarkar sao samaJaaOta krko mausalamaanaaoM kao j,yaada AiQakar idlaa sakto hOM. yah BaI yaad rho ik Agar isaivalanaafrmaanaI ko ja,maanao maoM vao phlaI ra]ND Tobala kanÍonsa gayao tao ihndU mahasaBaa ko laIDr BaI ]nako saaqa maaOjaUd qao. AaOr ifr yah rasta saaf hao gayaa TU naoSana qyaaOrI ka daonaaoM trf sao‚ ijasao ihndU mahasaBaa ko saamanao saavarkr nao 1938 maoM rKa AaOr mauislama laIga nao laahaOr rOjaUlaoSana ko jairyao 1940 maoM maMjaUr ikyaa.

ip`ş — Ambaodkr saahba kI @yaa BaUimaka qaI raYT/Iya Aandaolana maoMĆ mausalamaanaaoM ko p`it ]naka dRiYTkaoNa kBaI – kBaI Aarş esaş esaş ko naja,dIk idKta hO.

[ş hş — Ambaodkr saahba ko baaro maoM ek caIja, hma saba jaanato hOM ik vao dilataoM ko ka^ja, maoM hmaoSaa majabaUtI sao kayama rho. laoikna AMgao`jaI saama`ajya lp ivaraoQa maoM ]nhaoMnao eosaI kao[- majabaUtI nahIM idKa[-. vao saayamana kmaISana ko BaI saamanao poSa hue‚ iksaI raYT/Iya Aandaolana maoM ]nhaoMnao kao[- ihssaa nahIM ilayaa‚ ' i@vaT [iNDyaa' ko va@t vaayasaraya kI e@jaI@yaUiTva ka]Misala ko maombar banao rho. AaOr ifr ]saI AasaanaI ko saaqa Syaamaap`saad mauKjaI- kI trh ' i@vaT [iNDyaa' ko jamaanao maoM baMgaala ko imainasTr banao rho AaOr Aajaad Baart kI phlaI kOibanaoT maoM Saaimala hue. ]nhaoMnao Alaga – Alaga maaOkaoM pr ihndU Qama- AaOr [slaama daonaaoM kI Alaga – Alaga trh Aalaaocanaa kI. kha jaa sakta hO ik Ambaodkr saahba kao samaJanao ko ilayao ja,$rI hO ik yah doKa jaayao ik ]sa jamaanao maoM ]nakI rajanaIit @yaa qaIĆ

ip`ş — AajaadI ko baad kaMga`osa ko pasa sa<aa Aa[-. ]sako baad ka jaao pccaIsa – tIsa saala ka samaya qaa‚ nao@salaa[T maUvamaonT sao qaaoD,a Aagao tk ka‚ saba kuC vaamapMqaI p`Baava maoM qaa. naoh$ jaI laoiFTsT nahIM qao‚ tao BaI kma sao kma kmyaUnala tao nahIM qao. ]naka Jaukava samaajavaad kI Aaor qaa. saaih%ya‚ [ithasa‚ klaa‚ rajanaIit saba pr vaamapMqaI p`Baava qaa. Antra-YT/Iya pirdRSya BaI [sako pxa maoM qaa. hmaaro saamanao caIna‚ $sa ka ]dahrNa qaa. tao [sa pUro samaya ko daOrana khaĐ pr @yaa TUTa yaa CUTa ik Aaja caIjaoM yahaM tk phuMca gayaI hOM ik idllaI kI gad\dI lagaBaga Aarş esaş esaş kI mauT\zI maoM Aa gayaI hO.

[ş hş — Aap ]nhoM laoiFTsT khto hOM‚ maOM tao maanata hI nahIM ik yao laaoga laoiFTsT qao. Aaja baIş jaoş pIş ko ivaraoQa maoM tao hr ek ' laoiFTsT ' hao gayaa hO. laoikna Aap ]sa jamaanao maoM doKoM ik pMş naoh$ kI jaao dUsarI pMcavaYaI-ya yaaojanaa qaI‚ jaIş DIş ibarlaa nao ]saka samaqa-na ikyaa AaOr kha ik piblak sao@Tr sao eosaa kccaa maala AaOr ibajalaI imala jaaegaI jaao hma pUMjaIpit nahIM banaa sakto. Agar maaoTrkar banaanaa hO tao sasta laaoha kOsao imalaogaaĆ ]tnaI pUMjaI hI pUMjaIpityaaoM ko pasa nahIM qaI. Aajakla jaao saMrxaNa ko yauga kI baura[- krto hOM‚ ]nhIM ko ip`ksa-sa- sabasao j,yaada saMrxaNa kI maaMga kr rho qao. maamaUlaI AadmaI… jaOsao maOM qaa‚ tao blaoD hI zIk sao nahIM imalata qaa ik daZ,I banaa sakoM. tao maamaUlaI AadmaI saMrxaNa ko pxa maoM ]tnaa nahIM qaa ijatnaa ]Vaogapit qaa. tao piblak sao@Tr AaOr p`aoTo@Sana ł saava-jainak xao~ AaOr sarkarI saMrxaNa´ daonaaoM ihndustana ko pUMjaIpityaaoM kI maaMga qaI. jahaM tk piNDt naoh$ kI ivadoSa naIit qaI‚ tao naana ekaa[namaonT ł inagau-T´ bahut SauÉ huAa‚ laoikna SauÉ maoM tao ]nhaoMnao kafI saaqa idyaa saama`ajya ka. AaOr baad maoM bahut ehithat sao kama ilayaa. laoikna piblak sao@Tr banaayaa ]nhaoMnao. Aaja piblak sao@Tr kao laoiFTsT kha jaayao pr ]sa samaya isavaaya kuC kao CaoD, kr saba laaoga‚ vyavasaaiyak Garanao‚ saMrxaNa AaOr piblak sao@Tr ko pxa maoM qao. ]na laaogaaoM nao BaI yah doKa ik laa[f [nSyaaoronsa ko raYT/IyakrNa ko baad ]nakI pUMjaI bahut baZ, gayaI . laaogaaoM kao yakIna hao gayaa ik hmaara pOsaa saurixat hO AaOr jaaoiKma sao bacaa hO. jaba baOMk ka raYT/IyakrNa huAa [indra gaaMQaI ko ja,maanao maoM‚ tao ]samaoM yah vaayada ikyaa gayaa ik [samaoM jaao BaI baOMk raYT/IyakRt haogaa‚ tao ]samaoM jaao BaI kja- idyao gayao hOM AaOr jaao BaI [nako p`itinaiQa haoMgao baOMk p`banQana maoM‚ hma tbdIlaI nahIM kroMgao. tao vaastva maoM ihndustanaI vyaapairk GaranaaoM kao baD,a fayada huAa baOMk raYT/IyakrNa sao‚ @yaaoMik raYT/IyakRt baOMk maoM BaI Aama AadmaI kao yakIna hao gayaa ik [samaoM Agar hma Apnaa Épyaa rKoM tao saurixat hO. jaao saamaanya raYT/IyakrNa hO vah kBaI nahIM huAa. ABaI koyarnana kI iktaba maOM pZ, rha qaa tao ]nhaoMnao 1960 maoM ilaKa hO ik mauJao ihndustana maoM yah baD,a tajjauba huAa ik p`a[vaoT [nTrp`a[ja, piblak sao@Tr kI baura[- BaI bahut krto hOM AaOr ]saI pr ija,nda BaI hOM. Aaja jaao pUMjaIpit p`ayavaoTa[jaoSana ka naara do rho hOM‚ ]nasao pUCa jaanaa caaihyao ik Aap ApnaI pUMjaI sao ApnaI fO@T/I @yaaoM nahIM calaatoĆ Aap piblak sao@Tr kI fO@T/I pr kbjaa @yaaoM krnaa caahto hOMĆ vaao isaf- [sailayao ik sasta maala imalaoĆ tao yah tao doSa kI pUMjaI kI laUT ko barabar hO. Aba tao Aap yah kr rho hOM ik Alyauimainayama maoM baalkao pr phlao paMca hja,ar kraoD, Kca- kroM‚ ifr paMca saaO kraoD, maoM ]sao baoca doM. AaOr paMca saaO kraoD, kI pUMjaI pr vahI nafa p`a[vaoT kao hao tao jaaihr hO bahut baD,I prsaonToja hO‚ tao ]sa pr Aap KuSa hOM ik saahba p`a[vaoT sao@Tr bahut AcCa cala rha hO. tao Aapnao jaba [tnaa Épyaa piblak sao@Tr pr Kca- ikyaa tao AapkI doSa kI [NDsT/I banaI Alyauimainayama kI‚ AaOr Aba Aap ]sao lauTa rho hOM. tao [knaa^imak ihsT/I Agar Aap doKoM AajaadI ko baad kI‚ tao ]samaoM kao[- vaamapMqa nahIM qaa. ]samaoM tao ek gaMBaIr yaaojanaa qaI AaOVaogaIkrNa kI ijasako bagaOr AaOVaogaIkrNa nahIM haota. tkrIbana hr Aqa-Saas~I [sa pr sahmat qaa ik Agar ihndustana ka AaOVaogaIkrNa haonaa hO tao yaaojanaa haonaI caaihyao‚ piblak sao@Tr bananaa caaihyao. AaOr jaba Aapka [tnaa baD,a piblak sao@Tr banaa gayaa… [tnaa baD,a Kca- hao gayaa‚ tao Aap Aba ]sao inajaIkrNa krko janata kI [tnaI baD,I rkma Aap ]nako ł AaOVaoigak GaranaaoM´ haqaaoM saupud- kr rho hOM. tao Aba jaao isqait hO vah kao[- AaOVaoigak ]darvaad nahIM hO‚ vah tao laUT hO. TO@sa donao vaalaaoM sao pOsaa laokr Aapnao [tnaI baD,I sampi<a banaa[- hO‚ ]sao zIk sao p`banQana na krko p`a[vaoT maoM do rho hOM. Aap khto hOM ik Agar naIlaama ikyaa jaayao tao zIk hO‚ pr jaba baaolaI lagaanao vaalao ko pasa pOsao nahIM hOM‚ paMca hja,ar kraoD, nahIM hOM‚ tao paMca hja,ar kraoD, kI paMca saaO kraoD, maoM ibak jaayaogaI. laUT tao laUT rhogaI.

ip`ş — Aaiqa-k naIit ko Alaavaa saaih%ya‚ [ithasa‚ iflma maoM BaI vaamapMqa qaa.

[ş hş — maorI samaJa maoM nahIM Aata ik Aap ihsT/I kao kOsao kh sakto hOM ik laoiFTsT ko pasa rhIĆ

ip`ş — jaao iktabaoM phlao pZ,IM ]namaoM pirvat-na tao baIş jaoş pIş nao ikyaa hO. laoikna ]nako ilayao baIş jaoş pIş vaalao yahI daoYa doto hOM ik yah saba laoiFTsT nao Apnao ihsaaba sao [ithasa ilaKa hO.
[ş hş — baIş jaoş pIş vaalao tao hr ]sa ek kao laoiFTsT khto hOM jaao ]nasao sahmat na hao.

ip`ş — saaih%ya Ć

[ş hş — Aba saaih%ya ko baaro maoM maOM nahIM jaanata j,yaada.

ip`ş — iflmaĆ

[ş hş — iflma pr tao kBaI maaonaaoplaI sarkar kI nahIM rhI. jaao caaho iflma banaaAao.

— Aaga pZ,oMo